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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.11 10:59:00 -
[1]
tl;dr version:
Suicide ganker whines he hasnt total risk free profit.
Did it ever occur to you that a 1 minute long fight is more fun for both the loser and the winner than a 7 second fight where the winner alpha strikes the loser?
Which brings us to point 2, the only pvp you know is ganking unarmed haulers without any risk someone shoots you, that doesnt make it the only form of pvp in eve... |
Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.11 11:05:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Zephyr Rengate
Many valid points. Does seem that it will become far too easy to escape a pvp situation now. I dont even think I could do a bit of solo pvp if the web changes go ahead targets would just be able to run back to any gate far more easily then it is as of now.
My main concern at the moment is how safe and rich high sec space is.
How is that a problem exactly?
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.11 11:10:00 -
[3]
He is only looking at ganking unarmed or totally outgunned targets, he isnt looking at 'fair' fights. Sure if you just want easy kills you dont like more HP, i personally prefer a real fight where both sides get kills or in a 1v1 where both sides end in hull than easy kills. Then i really enjoy longer fights alot more than dieing in seconds.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.08.11 11:20:00 -
[4]
How is that pvp on easy mode?
It isnt like we are somewhere in middle of 0.0 where everyone arround us is blue and once in a while we do some pos busting.
I got enough solo kills, allthough lately and having been in militia too many were in fleets. But when enemy also has a similar fleet it can show as 20 vs 1 kill, but we also had 20 of them firing on us.
Not to mention the absolute requirement to be able to do small scale pvp according to many here, the nano ship, makes sure i miss alot of kills. Last fight i got was harbinger vs ishtar, i ended in hull, he ended in warp since there is no way i can kill a nano ship alone.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.11 11:25:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Furb Killer
He is only looking at ganking unarmed or totally outgunned targets, he isnt looking at 'fair' fights. Sure if you just want easy kills you dont like more HP, i personally prefer a real fight where both sides get kills or in a 1v1 where both sides end in hull than easy kills. Then i really enjoy longer fights alot more than dieing in seconds.
No, I'm not. The first thing people like yourself do is discount my position by implying that I'm not looking for 'real' PVP (whatever that is). This is what is known as setting up a Straw Man argument, which is only done by people who are generally large piles of shit.
Now that that is out of the way, I enjoy longer fights as well, but the coming changes arn't going to help anyone get into longer fights. The fights will be over as soon as the agressor loses lock as the target jumps back through a gate.
CCP could compensate for this by locking players out of jumping back through the same gate for 120 seconds (two minutes) or doing the same for stations as well to compensate for the lack of webbing and make players commit to an action. But of course this won't happen.
Note in my post that I said this affects all PVPers, regardless of what style or form of PVP they partake in. I specifically said this so @ssholes like yourself wouldn't make personal attacks and accuse me straight away of 'not knowing how to PVP' or 'only looking for easy ganks'.
Anyone who says such a thing clearly doesn't know WTF they're talking about.
I said real fights, not real pvp. But changing what i said makes it much easier to set up a straw man argument i suppose.
So again, the problem is that you totally outgun your opponent, otherwise he wouldnt run but fight. (btw i thought that not being able to run when totally outgunned with nano nerf was what was going to kill pvp and we had to whine about).
Or just make them initiate self destruct when you come withing 30km of their ship, even easier...
Again, i never said you didnt know how to pvp, again you are accusing me of stuff i never said.
This indeed affects me when pvp'ing also. In a positive way...
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.08.11 11:28:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Furb Killer
He is only looking at ganking unarmed or totally outgunned targets, he isnt looking at 'fair' fights. Sure if you just want easy kills you dont like more HP, i personally prefer a real fight where both sides get kills or in a 1v1 where both sides end in hull than easy kills. Then i really enjoy longer fights alot more than dieing in seconds.
Do you PvP much?
I fly more and more full out gank ships. Do you care to know why?
Simple. A ship which takes a minute or more to gank a ship of its size generally gets ganked a ton when soloing, because support has time to arrive from the neighboring system and gank you. HP buffs/slowing down fights/WTZ for fast travel/lowering damage while boosting EHP and tank with rigs all had the effect of promoting very fun and skilled  bait and blob tactics.
Sure, I enjoy a tactical 1v1, but I prefer to gank the target in 30s flat in a paper-thin ship because that way I have a chance to kill the target (or die) without his mates hopping in from the system nextdoor.
The reality of PvP is that the more time your target has to live, the more likely you are to get jumped by the guy's mates, which promotes the skillfull 1v1s you're talking about, right?
No shit, in a fight it is always watching local when his friends arrive, but even in best case it will take them at least 1 minute to arrive, which is assuming they were allready in pvp ships in system next door and alligned to right gate.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.11 11:30:00 -
[7]
What i really like to know, there seems to be two opinions here:
Eve is going to die/suck because people cant escape from blobs. In other words: Nanos cant escape when jumping into a larger fleet.
Eve is going to die/suck because people can escape non consensual combat. In other words: Ships can escape when jumping into a larger fleet (or at least when they are outgunned).
I like to know which one exactly is the reason eve is going to die/suck.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.08.11 11:35:00 -
[8]
Quote:
1) No sentry guns. This enables you to use the full range of ships and fittings the game provides.
So pvp is easier because you can use all ships? WTF...
Quote:
No sec drops - you can pirate under the NBSI cop out all you want and still get into hig sec when you need to churn through some lv4s. There is no consequences for your action and you dont have to stand by your decisions
Luckily the -10 pirates care alot about the sec drop they get. Oh wait, they dont give a crap. There are consequences, for example those red ships on your overview shooting you.
And again i have pvp'ed a long time in low sec without the need to let my sec rating drop. Sure i have had GCC often enough, but sometimes killing a ship and sometimes being the one who is attacked by a pirate + faction war targets + -10 pirates as target made sure that i had no issues at all to keep my sec rating positive.
Quote:
Bubbles - The ultimate in no skill pvp.
Wait i thought eve was dieing because people could escape non consensual pvp. Now being able to prevent them for escaping is skilless? This is getting really confusing.
Quote:
FC Drone Bay - when the blobs form up - your an extended drone bay for the FC. No initiative is needed. No skill is needed. No thought is needed. Warp to where the fc says, shoot at what the fc says, retreat when the fc says.
Could be, didnt do that much blobs.
Quote:
Epic Lag - the only thing hard about 0.0 pvp is putting up with lag - and the amount of 0.0ers that put up with epic lag fests again and again and again shows truely how brain dead they are.
Serious come to 0.0 and find out that not everything is blob warfare everywhere. Havent had any trouble yet with lag in 0.0.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.08.11 11:38:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 11/08/2008 11:38:57
Heavy interdictors...
Quote:
99.99% of my kills are at a gate or station because I have to force fights. Not with carebear mission runners, but with all the 'hardcore PVPers' out there 'looking for fights'. 99% of the people I run into that are pvp equipped are looking to kill someone 12 on 1, not actually get into a fight. *Today* in fact I sat on the otherside of a highsec gate in lowsec with four people in my gang waiting for a twelve person gang to jump in and attack. They didn't.
And you are equipped to kill people 4 vs 1. How is that so much better than 12 vs 1? And when i look at your recent kills most of them were either unarmed, had pve fitting, or might as well have had no fitting.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.08.11 11:42:00 -
[10]
And i got a long list of examples of pirates gatecamping and running to station when an enemy fleet comes in same region as they are.
Or the pirates station camping with carriers that are further inside the station than the average nyx can fly into a caldari station.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.08.11 11:46:00 -
[11]
But you just said you were with 4 players. Then you can both web and scram the target without problems...
1. I dont represent -V-, it is just my own opinion, not theirs.
2. how is it carebear crap?
Thesedays carebear is just another word for someone you disagree with 
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.08.11 11:51:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 11/08/2008 11:52:26
Where exactly do i argue from blob point of view? And how exactly dont i do solo pvp?
And i am sure i can find somewhere a vid of pirates running when a fleet comes in same system (you realise that is pretty hard to put in a vid?), then you just tell they arent real pirates. Maybe we should first define what real pirates are.
And what are those who only fight when they are 100% sure they win and prefer to target industrials and rookie ships when they arent pirates?
Sure i see those carriers being bumped by nano machs all the time. Oh wait actually i have never seen them being bumped off...
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.08.11 11:56:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 11/08/2008 11:58:01
Actually i have never seen in tama a carrier station camping. In old man star senate station they are camping half of the time with capitals. And no it doesnt make sense, i have undocked 50 times with them camping, and they never got me. Just stop ship, wait 30 seconds, redock. But then i am stuck in the station if i want to fly a larger ship.
It wont really give pirates much more ability to run. When gatecamping they are on the gate allready usually. So when they want to jump they dont need to run anywhere, just press the button. Sure if you got 2 fleets you can then still catch them, but usually not.
And what if we play solo and have no scout? Oh wait, eve isnt game to play solo. Unless you are solo pirating because then it is an issue...
Last time i got camped in a station by pirate capitals they had thanatos, phoenix, nighthawk and sometimes another ship. All trying to get as close to station as possible. An hour long i couldnt undock with battlecruiser. (well i did undock but couldnt get into warp before they had me locked). The result: 2 rookie ships destroyed, 1 industrial, 1 shuttle. Must be fascinating game play.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.08.11 12:06:00 -
[14]
I got those pirate gatecamps running when fleet comes near from own experience yes, but never put it on vid. And that vid wouldnt show anything besides a scout reporting they all docked.
I am so gonna get flamed for this one, but:
Yes imo 'real' pirates fight for isk and not lulz. I understand they gank industrials. I personally dont like ganking them, but i dont have problems with others doing it. I understand sometimes in rookie ships they transport BPO's, so i can get it why you gank them.
But the chance a rookie ship that is mining in a belt transports BPOs is pretty small.
And i am pretty sure the majority of those flashie reds in low sec dont do it for the isk. They destroyed me often enough, and i have never had anyone asking for a ransom.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.08.11 12:12:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 11/08/2008 12:13:33
If you get back to gate with rapier on you they had serious lack of firepower.
But you like to fly nanos, you like to be able to run away from larger fleets, but you dont like people able to run away from larger pirate fleets?
Edit: And i thought no one would take that comment from skunk serious, guess i was wrong. Now try a t2 myrmidon and soon that fully insured becomes losing 40 million per myrmidon.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.08.11 12:29:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 11/08/2008 12:32:50
I know exactly what your kind of pirates do (that isnt an insult, you got those who shoot everything they see, those who do it pure for profit (very small group), and those who shoot everything that is unarmed).
But you say yourself that you right now shoot basicly everything that comes through a gate. How is it such a huge issue when a small percentage escapes?
Checked some of your kills when you made topic, and too lazy to check again, but that navy mega had horrible fitting from what i remember. Then add he apparently got podded too, and we can conclude he was a noob (98% of those who get podded in low sec arent experienced with pvp). Do you seriously think that after web changes they all will burn back to the gate without fighting and jump through? I really doubt it.
And web changes might hurt you, but i also like to be able to move a bit when doing close range fights. Right now in small gangs it is: outside 10 km going 5km/s. Or inside 10km going 0m/s due to multiple 90% webs on you. I would enjoy it alot more when i can actually move.
Now i understand perfectly why you dont like it. But from my (egocentric) point of view: I like changes (when i pvp, not so i can escape pirates better without fighting), you dont like changes. I still like changes, so i am happy with changes.
Okay true, if you ransom me i wont block you, but i will hope you didnt notice that i started self destruct timer. Even if i would pay ransom most would probably still destroy me.
Now if we could continue the debate like this, in a civilised way, i would be really happy 
(allthough i got to go in a while  )
Edit: Navy megas, few months ago i bought one (yep for carebearing in high sec when i feel like it), and they were 400M. Sure once saw one for 300M, but before i managed to reach the region it was in someone bought it. In the end i bought one for 410M with 2 CCC rigs iirc. But it could be that it dropped alot, didnt check it recently.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.08.11 12:55:00 -
[17]
FW decreased ammount of pirate gatecamps by alot, and most FW fleets dont fire on neutrals, making it much safer for random people to travel through low sec space.
You say the problem is that people can escape, but is that a problem? When people can actually escape some of camps in low sec they might have more reason to stay there. Right now the first experience most people got with low sec pvp is getting caught in a pirategatecamp without ANY chance of escaping.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.08.11 15:35:00 -
[18]
If they would nerf high sec profits i think most will go to 0.0. Not really much reason to go to low sec.
And problems with minerals and mission runners. Yeah lets totally remove lvl 4 missions from high sec because they get too much loot. Or just give them only named loot (no more t1 loot), let named loot reprocess in less minerals and if needed decrease ammount of loot that drops.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.08.12 07:55:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 12/08/2008 08:00:22
Quote:
You are an idiot. Don't you EVER post again unless you research what you are talking about. I cannot explain enough to you how much of a moron you are. How dare you, you presumptuous *******. Please refer here: http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Bellum+Eternus-kills.html#show << this is rough and tentative, as BC is not the msot accurate KB on the planet :P . Now, stop talking and listen to someone who knows WHAT they are talking about.
For some weird reason you apparently tried to probe my mind and found out i didnt knew allready about who he was. You were wrong...
I even checked battleclinic, and what do i see? A shitload of kills and barely losses. Now there are 2 possibilities. He can be an awesome pvp'er with the best tactics who always managed to takes out a similar or better armed opponent.
Or possibility 2 is that he mainly shoots opponents that arent armed at all, are total noobs or are completely outgunned. Now i dont say he isnt a good player, but it is pretty obvious he does possibility 2 also. Now again, i dont say something is wrong with doing that. I personally dont like it, but if he likes it that is fine for me. But he shouldnt act like that represents all pvp in in eve. Like i said before:
He doesnt like the changes from his pvp point of view. I do like the changes from my pvp point of view. Guess which opinion is more important to me...
@murder, pretty obvious to me. He thinks it should be normal you can escape from a blob, but you shouldnt be able to escape from a solo player? That just doesnt make any sense.
And with changes it doesnt become harder to run from blobs compared to running from solo players.
And lets not forget, the average target of him doesnt even know he can run back to the gate.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.12 11:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: murder one
Quote:
I even checked battleclinic, and what do i see? A shitload of kills and barely losses. Now there are 2 possibilities. He can be an awesome pvp'er with the best tactics who always managed to takes out a similar or better armed opponent.
Or possibility 2 is that he mainly shoots opponents that arent armed at all, are total noobs or are completely outgunned.
Looks to me like he does both equally well. How does doing one over the other diminish the value of what he says?
I should according to the one i reacted on (might be you, too lazy to check) be impressed by his battleclinic stats. And to that i responded with this part. Not that hard to get.
Quote:
Quote:
He doesnt like the changes from his pvp point of view. I do like the changes from my pvp point of view. Guess which opinion is more important to me...
I re-read his post: seems to me that he didn't say "I don't like the changes". What I got from his post was "here's what is going to happen for all PVPers, regardless of how you play, you've been informed."
Yeah right, can i join your dream world? He is just telling us pvp will suck after changes. And he tells it is independant on how you pvp, but that is just not true. If i do only belt pvp i dont need to worry about targets running back to a gate. If i probe mission runners i also dont need to worry. If i canbait in high sec belts i dont need to worry, etc.
And he made pretty clear he didnt like the changes. That it is kinda becoming a habbit here to start a new topic with: this is not a whine/rant/etc or something similar doesnt mean it isnt one.
Quote:
Quote:
@murder, pretty obvious to me. He thinks it should be normal you can escape from a blob, but you shouldnt be able to escape from a solo player? That just doesnt make any sense.
And with changes it doesnt become harder to run from blobs compared to running from solo players.
Again, are you being dense on purpose? Clearly the point was this: that completing kills *solo* will now be much more difficult, and that even more ships will now be required as a standard minimum to ensure a dependable outcome (a kill) when a target presents itself. Not that this is buffing 'blobs', but rather demanding that they be used in order for players to be effective in PVP. Both situations are bad.
Imo it is good that people can fit ships to give them larger chance to escape small gatecamps, i really dont see why the campers should get guaranteed kills on less armed ships. Especially when apparently people should be able to escape blobs when they are less armed, but shouldnt escape solo players? Sorry but it still doesnt make sense.
Quote:
Quote:
And lets not forget, the average target of him doesnt even know he can run back to the gate.
It sounds like you're making some very large assumptions about a player you know nothing about with the above statement. Further more, what does this have to do with anything regarding what he stated in the original post? Are you simply continuing with this point so as to try and diminish his credability? Is that the only rebuttal you have to his post? It's obvious you can't come up with any valid data to refute his original point.
It is obvious that you have nothing usefull to add to this topic. This has nothing to do with his credibility. But apparently you prefer to try to decredit me than reacting on topic.
It is pretty simple: He says he will lose many kills when playing solo because they will all just run back to gate. I say many of his targets dont even know you can run back.
Nop i dont know how skilled his victims are exactly, but a quick look on battleclinic:
Last kill a vexor with 1 OD, 1 heatsink, 2 pdus fitted in low slots. Rest of slots isnt much better.
Next an apoc with 7! ODs fitted, 3 large shield boosters, mining drones, and i really hope that KM was bugged because it makes sad panda.
They wont run back.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:25:00 -
[21]
Maybe he shouldnt have started his post then with something that is totally unrelated to the rest of the post...
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